Forum Activity for @Jessica Osterday

Beth,

What dessicant cans have you found to be effective?

$500, and I am finding it is wearing out quickly, not sure if I am causing that or it is because of the nylon washer they use. I am finding they are wearing quickly.

Hi Beth,

if you don't mind me asking the price you paid for the cocoatown melanger?

Beth:

Taste the liquor. What's the texture? How much acidity is in it? That will tell you if the liquor has been conched at all - or just refined. There's no standard procedure for this, but I would guess that most liquors are not conched though they may be ground finely enough so that the texture is okay ... but not all are.

Both sugar and cocoa butter tend to grab on to aromas - good ones and bad ones - making it harder to drive them off. A general strategy would be to work with just the liquor for several hours before adding any other ingredients (e.g., sugar) and then grind/refine/conche until you get the flavor you want and then add the cocoa butter.

Question - commercial powdered sugar or sugar you are powdering yourself? Most commercial powdered sugar has cornstarch in it and you don't want that in your chocolate bar.

thanks so much for all you share Clay. It is very informative and I get alot out of this website. I look forward to hearing more about this machine. As my business grows I would love to upgrade to a larger capacity, quicker method. I have sooo much more to learn about making chocolate, but seem to be making many people happy in the meantime. If you don't mind explaining, I am trying to understand if I should be dry conching first. At this time I melt alot of cacao butter, and half that amount cacao liquor, and pour it into the cocoatown melanger, and then quickly add the powdered sugar. This I grind for up to 4 hrs before adding any other ingredients. Would I benefit in this case by dry conching, just letting the liquor grind by itself, or has this step already been done by the company who produces the liquor or paste I buy? (Or is this up to the producer?)

Michael -

Macintyre manufactures universals of many sizes with the smallest being about 45kg as I remember. There are many makers of this style of machine. They are not just conches - they are grinders, refiners, and conches and you can get them in sizes up to many tonnes.

And yes - they are fast, which is one reason chocolate manufacturers like them.

Challenge is, many people stretch to buy a single ECGC65 so even a small universal from Macintyre - starting prices well over $20k - is too much for most people. There are machines from China that are much less expensive but they have bad reputations for reliability. I am working with a company out of South America to bring a 40kg universal to the US for well under $10k - probably not until September at the earliest.

The conche I was referring to in the last paragraph is not a universal. It's a new machine I helped shepherd through the design and manufacturing process with FBM. It's a 50kg melting tank with integrated pump with a conche attachment that fits over the bowl of the melter. When conching it has a capacity of about 35kg (you need head space in the top of the machine for air flow). You can pump in a lot of heat and air and generate a lot of shear force (through counter-rotating stirrers not grinding) and the pump moves the chocolate from the bottom of the bowl to the top the entire time.

It's really quite effective and it gives small chocolate makers a lot of control they don't have now over the flavor development process. It's not a grinder or a melangeur - it's a small, fast, conche that is also a melting tank so it has a lot of applications in the craft chocolate workshop.

It's name is Kleego and I will be making a formal announcement to ChocolateLife members - and the world - in the next couple of weeks.

Clay - in regard to the conche you refer to at the end of your post, I have seen universal conches that look like a small Macintyre. I think Brad uses something like this. Is this what you are referring to? I had no idea that they were that much faster than a stone grinder.

To really oversimplify things cocoa nib (what's left after roasting, cracking, and winnowing need to be:

a) Ground
b) Refined
c) Conched

on their way to becoming chocolate.

Nibs are ground into chocolate liquor and there are no other ingredients added. The result is a coarse, often gritty paste with a wide particle-size distribution with particles often in the 60-120 micron range, but this can vary widely.

The liquor then gets refined down to a point where the particle size distribution is in the 12-20 range. During refining other ingredients are added - sugar, milk, and vanilla. If you are using any form of crystalline sweetener you are going to need to refine it before conching.

Once the chocolate is refined, it is conched. Conching has both a physical component (improvement in texture) but also a flavor development component. There are two stages in conching. Dry (no added cocoa butter) and wet (after cocoa butter and/or lecithin are added).

A melanger (or melangeur) like a CocoaTown or Santha is technically being used as a "universal." Universals are called that because they handle all three stages - grinding, refining, and conching in a single device.

Devices like the CocoaTown were not developed for making chocolate originally. They were made for grinding soaked beans, such as lentils, into pastes. That's why they are called wet grinders. They look a lot like old-style melanguers and so they were adapted for that purpose.

You don't have to use the wet grinders as universals. You can pre-grind the nib and sugar to reduce the amount of time required to mix and refine them together in the wet grinder. Likewise, you can remove the chocolate from the wet grinder when it is refined and put it into a device that is designed specifically for conching.

The CocoaTowns and Santhas are used because they are relatively inexpensive (at least to get started) and relatively easier to understand and to use. They are not used because they are the best, or even good, ways to make chocolate. It is possible to get "real" universals of about the same capacity as a CocoaTown 65 for about the same price that will be able to go from nib to finished chocolate in under 24 hours.

It is (now) possible to buy a conche that will do in 2-4 hours what it takes a CocoaTown 65 48 hours or more to perform. The price is about 50% higher than a CocoaTown 65 for roughly the same capacity.

yes, I am using dessicant cans to suck moisture out of the bucket of sugar and then I powder and grind the sugar into the rest.

Hi Beth, I had also made chocolate using coconut sugar instead of table sugar. The humidity issues must be dealt with before the sugar comes in contact with the cocoa or the shelf life and finishing of the final product will be compromised. Are you facing this challenge?

howdy, if by conching you mean grinding the sugar in and blending all ingredients then it takes around 3-4 hrs if all goes well. I am using coconut sugar and dealing with humidity issues which can make the sugar clump and slow the process alot. I am not sure if what I am doing is conching. I am not grinding the actual beans. I am also doing around 8 lb batches and using a cocoatown melanger. I am maxing it out and hope it won't hurt the machine over time. peace, Beth

Beth and Clay,

If you don't mind sharing, what's your experience with conch times for batches? I am using a friend's machine at the moment and at doing about 8lb batches I am conching for about 3 hours. Just curious as to what others are doing. Any and all input appreciated.

Best

thanks, i got a melanger from cocaotown and I'm very happy with the results. Much smoother than before.

Beth:

You can certainly "reconstitute" cocoa powder and cocoa butter with sugar (and other ingredients) to make chocolate. You do not have to start from liquor or mass.

You will need something to mix the ingredients together, get the particle size down, make sure that any clumps of particles (called agglomerates) are broken up, and that the particles are completely covered in fat. Some flavor development may also be necessary.

I do know people who just melt the cocoa butter, mix in (by hand) the cocoa powder, and add a non-crystalline sweetener (e.g., agave syrup). In this case, they do not use a melangeur/conche.

However, if you are using a crystalline sugar (e.g., white, evaporated cane juice), then you will need a grinder to get the texture right.

Beth:

Idon'tknow if i'm qualified to reply or give advice considering how little experience i have with making chocolate compared to the others on this forum

I am experimenting with bean to bar currently and have discovered that a wet stone grinder(widely available here in India and not too expensive. I got mine for Rs4200 which works out to roughly USD80 ) does a very good job of both refining and conching.

regards

I pressed return too soon, excuse my spelling.... I want to be clear that I am currently not a bean to bar maker, because of the immense cost and labour, but I am in another unknown category using powder, paste and butter to make my own chocolate. I am powdering coconut sugar in a vitamix, but find it still have graininess. I am trying to decide if I should purchase a conching machine as well as a temperer. thanks And also if a conching machine is the same thing as a melanger?

Wondering if anyone knows if a conching or melanger is necessary to mix cacao powder, butter and sugar, or does it have to be liqeur? [ sic: liquor is the correct term and spelling. ]

Hi everyone,

As an option for my school project I want to go over the costs of the machinery needed to produce chocolate. My partners and I are not knowledgeable in this area so I could use your expertise! The following are the machinery and respective prices that I have found (mostly from alibaba.com). Please let me know if the costs are wrong and if I am missing equipment or should replace any of them!

The production capacity for the company is 2475 kg of dark chocolate per month, so around 15 kg per hour.

Process: bean cleaning, roasting, cracking, winnowing, nib grinding, refining/conching, tempering, molding

Bean Cleaner: $2000

http://www.alibaba.com/showroom/cocoa-bean-cleaning-machine.html

Roaster: $200

http://shop.chocolatealchemy.com/products/behmor-1600-roaster

Cracker: $1000 http://www.cocoatown.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=71&Itemid=77

Winnower: $800 http://www.thechocolatelife.com/group/homechocolatemakers/forum/topics/1978963:Topic:12336?commentId=1978963%3AComment%3A13785&groupId=1978963%3AGroup%3A8115

Nib grinder: 150$ http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/472430642/Self_automatic_bean_grinder.html

Two-roll refiner: $2000 http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/534536412/Two_roll_type_rubber_refiner.html

Five-roll refiner: $5000

Conch machine: $1000 http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/339891701/SMJ500_Chocolate_conche.html

(cheaper alternative to two-roll & conch): refiner/conching: 500$ Santha Wet Grinder

Tempering machine: $1000

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/508281763/2012_Very_Hot_Chocolate_Tempering_Machine.html

- mixer: $ 2000

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/432429310/Chocolate_Mixer.html

- molds: 60$ per (supports 20 spoons).

Thank you kindly!
Regards,
Daniel

Aloha Chocolate Life family,

I am a new member on this forum but have been making and exploring chocolate for a good while now and it is a continually exciting journey for me. I have only recently scaled up and started retail sales of my bars. One of the most valuable parts of taking a passion into the business world is feedback from customers. I have found that, amongst the connoisseur types, the recent "chocolate as health food" types, the purists, the niche groups like diabetic/sugar-free dieters, and the generic customers who just like chocolate whether it's Hershey's or Bonnat, there is also a wide range of preference for sweeteners.

Personally, I feel great about providing bars that are made with 100% organic ingredients only, keeping it natural and using no fillers or flavor substitutes. Using artificial or heavily refined sweeteners or flavorings is out of the question for me. I wonder if others have done much experimenting with different (natural) sweeteners other than cane sugar, specifically for bars, and how things turned out? Not just for you, but for customers as well. Does anyone have a preference for a sweetener for chocolate bars that is not cane sugar?

I have found that maple sugar is extremely complimentary to chocolate, and people LOVE it. It is probably 20X as expensive as what most chocolate makers use however.

Hi Matthew

You can visit our web page www.coffeenutsroasters.com I think Antonino Allegra fro Cocoa Fair gave some idea about our roasters you can roast cocoa in our roasters too

Clay,

I spoke to my roaster manufacturer about the aforementioned modifications. He told me that to have a speed controller on the motor would not be possible, as the motors come standard. However, he said that to change the drum rotation speed, the length of the pulley would have to be changed. In the existing design that he has, the rpm for the drum is 32. Should I take the one he has on stock, or should I ask him to reduce the speed somewhere in the range of 25-28?

PS: My roaster is a 25 kg capacity.

Thanks for your time Clay. I greatly appreciate it!

Luvin

Luvin:

Put a speed controller on your motor and tune it to the speed you need - based on the diameter of the drum you're using and how you're roasting (time/temp). Smaller drums can run faster as the beans are not subject to as much banging around as a larger drum.

Airflow control, conceptually, means having a fan that enables you to blow air through the drum. Ideally, you'd control the speed and temperature of the airflow.

Thanks Ben & Dan for your much appreciated insight.

- Is there an absolute number (in RPM) as to what the drum rotation speed should be?

- Im getting the roaster made in mild steel with the drum contact parts in stainless steel. Should I be going for a complete mild steel body, according to what you are suggesting?

- Can you please let me know more about what you mean when you say 'airflow control'. I'll be able to get this across to my manufacturer, better.

Thank you for your help. I greatly appreciate it!

Luvin

Convection ovens are versatile beasts to be true and I recommend a lot of them into situations where there is no budget for a more conventional roaster.

I would like to add that cooking is also about CONTROLLING heat and airflow.One thing very few convection ovens have is any sort of even the most basic control over the airflow.

Also, not all convection ovens heat evenly from top to bottom, left to right, back to front. One very easy way to see how even your oven is is to put yellow or white cake batter into a sheet pan on every rack in the oven and bake it. Light areas in the top crust indicate places where the oven is cooler, dark brown areas indicate places where the oven is hotter.

Hi Luvin,

We, Coffee-Tech Engineering, have several customers around the world using our roasters for cocoa roasting - on our small capacity roasters and on our commercial roasters.

What Ben writes is true - you'll want to have control over drum speed and thermal behavior. I would also add that drum material is an important factor (we suggest perforated mild steel drums for cocoa) and airflow control is also something that will only benefit you.

- Dan

Hi Luvin,

See Colin's post earlier in this thread. I think the only modifications would be related to drum speed and the ability to roast at lower temperatures. If you can control those two things adequately, a coffee roaster should work fine.

-Ben

Convection Oven.

It roasts 35lbs at a time (260lbs in 8 hours), and does a fine job, provided you place the beans on screens or use perforated sheet pans.

On a smaller scale (Under $30k), there simply is no better solution. On top of that, you can roast your dinner, and cupcakes, and brownies, and coffee, and anything else you like.

Cooking ANYTHING is about heat and airflow. It's that simple. A convection oven has both.

Cheers.

Brad

Hi guys,

I am on the lookout of purchasing a coffee roaster myself. I spoke to the manufacturer about the modifications, and he told me to be more specific and give him technicalities, as to what modifications do I need for cocoa.

Can you'll please suggest the modifications that I am going to have to get integrated on my roaster?

Thank you!

Luvin

www.sevvalmakine.com

[Note from moderator: Rifat appears to work for Sevval, which is located in Turkey. In addition to making coffee roasters they make nut roasters and other machines. This link is to the home page, which is in Turksish. Here is a direct link to the coffee roasters (in English): http://www.sevvalmakine.com/?/en/urunler.html#Coffee Roaster

This is great, thank you for the info. I'll reach out to Erkan and possibly Coffe-tech as well.

All the best.

M

here we go, extract from an email i sent to a The Chocolate Life memebr.:

Absolutely. - In fact, I prefer when people share this kind of stuff publicly on the site rather than privately via e-mail. That way, every member can benefit, including people who didn't know they wanted to know this stuff.

Hi Clay,

i have pics and info about the Roaster, is it ok to post it?

Hi. Just wanted to add a bit from my experience. I'm working at Coffee-Tech Engineering.

We're manufacturers of coffee roasters and we have several customers roasting cacao with our roasters, some with our 2 Kg shop roasters and some with our 15 Kg commercial roaster.

Drum speed and other configurations were set, in advance, to meet the needs of the customers.

I might also add that our shop roasters embed restricted fluid bed roasting and that on our manual roaster all these can be set by the end-users themselves.

Anyway, if somebody wants more information, you're welcome to contact me or just look us up.

Hope I didn't break any ethical rules with this post

Can you post it please so we can all get the info? Thank you.

Great infocan you send me the information on where you got your roaster.

I've looked into coffee roasters too, and the one issue was drum speed. The people I contacted indicated that they could slow down the drum rotation of any size of coffee roaster they sold, but there would be an extra cost.

It sounds to me like Antonino has it dialed in (no pun intended) with the digital drum speed control. Sounds Interesting!

Cheers

Brad

Sorry, continued:

and unless you mess around with the setting you should have quite a even, consistent product.

we roast 15 kg beans at time and breakage is minimal (anyway, you need to winnow!!) with few tricks we manage to extract certain notes that we wish to have.. just a small change on the flame change the taste from hazelnutty to roast almond.

of course there is no limit to perfection and no limit to theoretical roasting and cost involved, but you are also in business to make money..

Hi Matthew, Colin,

we didn't modify the machine.

our roaster is equipped with digital drum speed control, an electronic/digital thermostat, and 3 point of gas/fire adjustment + ventilation valve that we can adjust as well.

we can accurately roast at temp of 120 or 140C quite accurately and unless you mess around with the settings.

Matthew,

You'll find that most coffee roasting drums rotate too rapidly and tend to chew up cacao. I've tried in a Dietrich and a Joper and both produced significant levels of breakage. Also, these machines aren't engineered for the process of roasting cacao, which has different heat transfer characteristics and temperature profiles than coffee, so you'll find it's very difficult to dial back the heaters to achieve accurate temperature profiling without scorching. There's nothing better out there right now than a properly configured convection oven for roasting at that volume unless you have 200k, in my opinion. You can get used gas convection ovens for next to nothing. A spouting fluid bed coffee roaster would be my second bet, but fluidizing cacao requires much higher airflow than coffee, so you're batch volumes would be smaller than rated and you'll still have issues with erratic agitation and breakage. Good luck!